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	<title>Comments on: Godless fiction, when it works, when it doesn’t, and why</title>
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		<title>By: Paul M</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-8125</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 08:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-8125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pratchett has a few books that deal with religion - &quot;Hogfather&quot; most particularly. Many of his discworld books (maybe all of them, except the early ones abut wizards) are entirely about the question of right and wrong. Feet of Clay is very worthwhile.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pratchett has a few books that deal with religion &#8211; &#8220;Hogfather&#8221; most particularly. Many of his discworld books (maybe all of them, except the early ones abut wizards) are entirely about the question of right and wrong. Feet of Clay is very worthwhile.</p>
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		<title>By: Bimmer</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-7311</link>
		<dc:creator>Bimmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 00:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-7311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I stumbled upon a book called Save Me, Rip Orion on Amazon.  To me, it&#039;s unmistakeably atheist fiction disguised as a kind of superhero satire. It&#039;s a very clever book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stumbled upon a book called Save Me, Rip Orion on Amazon.  To me, it&#8217;s unmistakeably atheist fiction disguised as a kind of superhero satire. It&#8217;s a very clever book.</p>
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		<title>By: mkilp</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6867</link>
		<dc:creator>mkilp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also think some episodes of Supernatural (one of my favorite shows) especially the ones that deal with angels and demons (which the show portrays as equally monstrous, with the demons as amoral anarchists and the angels as vicious faschists) serve as commentary on religion. The message seems to be &quot;If this stuff was real, this is what the world would be like, and it would suck.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think some episodes of Supernatural (one of my favorite shows) especially the ones that deal with angels and demons (which the show portrays as equally monstrous, with the demons as amoral anarchists and the angels as vicious faschists) serve as commentary on religion. The message seems to be &#8220;If this stuff was real, this is what the world would be like, and it would suck.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mkilp</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6853</link>
		<dc:creator>mkilp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 15:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Glad to see the Terry Pratchett mention. I also agree that His Dark Materials leaves a lot to be desired, not just as atheist fiction but fiction in general. Pullman is usually either shallow or, when he goes deep, he goes *so* deep that his intended audience of young readers will probably miss the point. As for fiction that isn&#039;t simply atheistic but downright sacreligious, I highly recommend &quot;Towing Jehova&quot; by James Morrow, the story about how God literally dies, his massive corpse is left floating in the ocean, and the oil tanker crew enlisted by angels to tow his decomposing body to a place of rest. Steven Erikson&#039;s &quot;Malazan book of the Fallen&quot; novels also have some very biting things to say about belief in and reliance upon God(s).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to see the Terry Pratchett mention. I also agree that His Dark Materials leaves a lot to be desired, not just as atheist fiction but fiction in general. Pullman is usually either shallow or, when he goes deep, he goes *so* deep that his intended audience of young readers will probably miss the point. As for fiction that isn&#8217;t simply atheistic but downright sacreligious, I highly recommend &#8220;Towing Jehova&#8221; by James Morrow, the story about how God literally dies, his massive corpse is left floating in the ocean, and the oil tanker crew enlisted by angels to tow his decomposing body to a place of rest. Steven Erikson&#8217;s &#8220;Malazan book of the Fallen&#8221; novels also have some very biting things to say about belief in and reliance upon God(s).</p>
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		<title>By: Caranaraf</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6839</link>
		<dc:creator>Caranaraf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2012 12:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recommend reading Neil Gaiman&#039;s &quot;American Gods&quot; it works roughly along the same lines of argumentation as Pratchett&#039;s &quot;Small Gods&quot; but has a way darker overall feeling]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recommend reading Neil Gaiman&#8217;s &#8220;American Gods&#8221; it works roughly along the same lines of argumentation as Pratchett&#8217;s &#8220;Small Gods&#8221; but has a way darker overall feeling</p>
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		<title>By: Fatpie42</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6793</link>
		<dc:creator>Fatpie42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Golden Compass&quot; refers to the Milton passage about a set of golden compasses. There is no golden compass in the actual story (eponymous or otherwise), but rather an &quot;alethiometer&quot;. A device used to tell truths (interestingly enough there is a lie-detecting technique IRL with the same name). In the world Pullman describes, magic is real and this is just one example of a magical device. On top of that there are the various daemons (which are a kind of embodiment of the religious idea of the soul), and of course the (eponymous, if you have the UK edition) Northern Lights which in Lyra&#039;s world are also magic.

The alethiometer has clearly been tested in its creation and so while Lyra does not put it through much testing, she puts it through as much testing as one would put a compass through. She uses it to guide her to some person or place and it delivers her there successfully every time.

I also think the criticism that the alethiometer doesn&#039;t distinguish between murder and manslaughter is a bit overly pedantic. Not least since the correct term to use when someone is killed in a fight is highly debatable.

&quot;And as a third pitfall, Lord Asriel’s arrogance, hunger for power and thirst for immortality, and his willingness to kill the innocent to get what he wanted, represented the worst traditional depiction of atheism.&quot;

But there are no atheists in that book! They exist in a world where God exists. What&#039;s more you are not supposed to like Lord Asriel at the end of &quot;Northern Lights&quot;. He does the one thing we&#039;ve been told throughout the story is absolutely abhorrent, the separating of a child from their daemon - their source of creativity and individuality. Naturally the fact that he does so in order to gain power is no better than doing so in order to seek control or to &#039;free&#039; children from sin. Did you get through the whole trilogy without realising that Lord Asriel was a bad person?

But yeah, the third book definitely drops the ball. After &quot;The Subtle Knife&quot; (my personal favourite of the trilogy) the third book (and the longest too, my goodness) was a big letdown.

Since you&#039;ve already mentioned Pratchett, I would recommend some graphic novels. Garth Ennis&#039; &quot;Preacher&quot; is a very awesome comic series about a Texan preacher who becomes possessed by a power which could potentially kill God, while God Himself has gone into hiding. I also like his somewhat more recent &quot;Chronicles of Wormwood&quot; about the son of Satan who is rebelling against his father.

Of course, HP Lovecraft is a writer who writes about a supernatural realm in which he does not believe in order to horrify the audience. For him gods are terrifying. Of the stories I&#039;ve read so far I think &quot;From Beyond&quot; is probably my favourite and it&#039;s available online if you look.

If you want a writer who leaves the supernatural out of it, Iain Banks is an atheist and his book &quot;Whit&quot; is an interesting story about a cult member seeing the wider world outside of their commune for the first time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Golden Compass&#8221; refers to the Milton passage about a set of golden compasses. There is no golden compass in the actual story (eponymous or otherwise), but rather an &#8220;alethiometer&#8221;. A device used to tell truths (interestingly enough there is a lie-detecting technique IRL with the same name). In the world Pullman describes, magic is real and this is just one example of a magical device. On top of that there are the various daemons (which are a kind of embodiment of the religious idea of the soul), and of course the (eponymous, if you have the UK edition) Northern Lights which in Lyra&#8217;s world are also magic.</p>
<p>The alethiometer has clearly been tested in its creation and so while Lyra does not put it through much testing, she puts it through as much testing as one would put a compass through. She uses it to guide her to some person or place and it delivers her there successfully every time.</p>
<p>I also think the criticism that the alethiometer doesn&#8217;t distinguish between murder and manslaughter is a bit overly pedantic. Not least since the correct term to use when someone is killed in a fight is highly debatable.</p>
<p>&#8220;And as a third pitfall, Lord Asriel’s arrogance, hunger for power and thirst for immortality, and his willingness to kill the innocent to get what he wanted, represented the worst traditional depiction of atheism.&#8221;</p>
<p>But there are no atheists in that book! They exist in a world where God exists. What&#8217;s more you are not supposed to like Lord Asriel at the end of &#8220;Northern Lights&#8221;. He does the one thing we&#8217;ve been told throughout the story is absolutely abhorrent, the separating of a child from their daemon &#8211; their source of creativity and individuality. Naturally the fact that he does so in order to gain power is no better than doing so in order to seek control or to &#8216;free&#8217; children from sin. Did you get through the whole trilogy without realising that Lord Asriel was a bad person?</p>
<p>But yeah, the third book definitely drops the ball. After &#8220;The Subtle Knife&#8221; (my personal favourite of the trilogy) the third book (and the longest too, my goodness) was a big letdown.</p>
<p>Since you&#8217;ve already mentioned Pratchett, I would recommend some graphic novels. Garth Ennis&#8217; &#8220;Preacher&#8221; is a very awesome comic series about a Texan preacher who becomes possessed by a power which could potentially kill God, while God Himself has gone into hiding. I also like his somewhat more recent &#8220;Chronicles of Wormwood&#8221; about the son of Satan who is rebelling against his father.</p>
<p>Of course, HP Lovecraft is a writer who writes about a supernatural realm in which he does not believe in order to horrify the audience. For him gods are terrifying. Of the stories I&#8217;ve read so far I think &#8220;From Beyond&#8221; is probably my favourite and it&#8217;s available online if you look.</p>
<p>If you want a writer who leaves the supernatural out of it, Iain Banks is an atheist and his book &#8220;Whit&#8221; is an interesting story about a cult member seeing the wider world outside of their commune for the first time.</p>
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		<title>By: EmuSam</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6790</link>
		<dc:creator>EmuSam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The over-literalism of Lewis Carrol and those inspired by him can be a useful lesson in thinking twice or thrice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The over-literalism of Lewis Carrol and those inspired by him can be a useful lesson in thinking twice or thrice.</p>
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		<title>By: skepbean</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6785</link>
		<dc:creator>skepbean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 02:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve read Pullman&#039;s HDM a couple times over and I have to disagree with a few points raised here. First I don&#039;t think the case was ever made that Lord Asriel was an atheist. Pullman created worlds in these books where the supernatural is a part of reality. While neither of Lyra&#039;s parents are role models, they do play a part in the demise of the almighty and the characters can be respected for their sacrifice. I think Pullman approached the religion of this universe from the direction of given that a god is real, it would be a tyrant. Those working for this god would be all kinds of wicked but those working against it wouldn&#039;t be saints either.
Also, insofar as we are led to &quot;trust&quot; the alethiometer we have to remember that everything it says is going through the filter of a 12 year old&#039;s brain. Yes murderer is a gross oversimplification of the events of Will&#039;s arrival in the world of the specters, but it&#039;s a symbol reader. I&#039;m not sure the alethiometer has symbolic levels to distinguish between manslaughter and murder. 
 I think the message we can extract from these books is that everyone should live their lives to the fullest because this god thing, if it exists at all, is a weakened tyrant. Not bad for a fantasy ya novel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read Pullman&#8217;s HDM a couple times over and I have to disagree with a few points raised here. First I don&#8217;t think the case was ever made that Lord Asriel was an atheist. Pullman created worlds in these books where the supernatural is a part of reality. While neither of Lyra&#8217;s parents are role models, they do play a part in the demise of the almighty and the characters can be respected for their sacrifice. I think Pullman approached the religion of this universe from the direction of given that a god is real, it would be a tyrant. Those working for this god would be all kinds of wicked but those working against it wouldn&#8217;t be saints either.<br />
Also, insofar as we are led to &#8220;trust&#8221; the alethiometer we have to remember that everything it says is going through the filter of a 12 year old&#8217;s brain. Yes murderer is a gross oversimplification of the events of Will&#8217;s arrival in the world of the specters, but it&#8217;s a symbol reader. I&#8217;m not sure the alethiometer has symbolic levels to distinguish between manslaughter and murder.<br />
 I think the message we can extract from these books is that everyone should live their lives to the fullest because this god thing, if it exists at all, is a weakened tyrant. Not bad for a fantasy ya novel.</p>
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		<title>By: The Ridger</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6784</link>
		<dc:creator>The Ridger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Newton&#039;s Cannon with 2 Ns - took me a few extra clicks to find it at Amazon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Newton&#8217;s Cannon with 2 Ns &#8211; took me a few extra clicks to find it at Amazon.</p>
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		<title>By: staggerlee</title>
		<link>http://www.theatheistpig.com/2012/09/26/godless-fiction-when-it-works-when-it-doesnt-and-why/#comment-6779</link>
		<dc:creator>staggerlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theatheistpig.com/?p=936#comment-6779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Terry Pratchett has another one outside of the Discworld series called Nation which i think it some great atheist allegorical fiction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry Pratchett has another one outside of the Discworld series called Nation which i think it some great atheist allegorical fiction.</p>
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